Curse

Stormlord Alex · Oct 03, 2008, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Here's to hoping that the OP never gets a say in any decisions affecting game balance. If you can't understand why shadowsteps - a mechanic that destroys the aspect of positioning - are bad, then go learn to play the goddamn game.

And /signed for Tyla's idea. Seriously, what good have 'sins ever brought PvP?
Kills for people not skilled enough to play warrior? lol
Caster spikes? Sinsplit? lolol
Untill Izzy gets his rear in gear and balances properly, I think it's a rather good idea.

NeroX · Oct 03, 2008, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destro Maniak

Assassins shouldnt use shadow step ITS USELESS
Im a sin for more than y3ear I gave 1200 hours to it

And what I observed, any kind of shadow step is useless
Not only because the after cast delay that is foolis
THE RECHARGE IS SOOOO LONG

But I am aware that shadow steps arent that good even if the delay is reduced

(btw, you complained about whirled defence of rangers, allways use golden fox strike+wild strike, you kill everyone *I use golden fox+wild strike+shattering strike to unleash hell

)

limiting yourself to just those skills just because of their unblockable status, reduces the amount of variation development in building new bars.
not to mention the unblockable attack skills sins have got arent as effective damage-wise as other skills (even though you're at least guaranteed a hit, unless blind). these shadow stepping skills ALLOW variation. imagine every sin was using the combo you just mentioned now, how predictable will that be?! then we'll all go on a blinding frenzy.
and btw, i dont always use shadow steps in my builds, but when i do, id rather no aftercast delay. Maybe shadow steps have long recharge for a reason?? because people complain about positioning as ive found out.

also, many people have commented on having some sort of condition to be met to shadow step (yes, i dont mind that).

and Stormlord Alex, thats exactly my point, they're bad enough already in pvp "WHY NERF them even more, especially in an area that can make them exceptional combatants when used properly?" (melee lacking def, plus adequate self prot ... no wonder why the rules of positioning should be bent a little.) Keep in mind whats been said in previous posts about making shadow step exclusive to assassins, and conditions to be met to shadow step.

Stormlord Alex · Oct 03, 2008, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeroX

and Stormlord Alex, thats exactly my point, they're bad enough already in pvp

It seems as though you missed my point. All the assassin as a class has ever bought to PvP was skill-free lame shit.
Most semi-intelligent PvPers would be more than happy to see the assassin die and stay dead.

btw, there is no 'using the assassin properly'. You press 1234567 and hope your target dies.

Luminarus · Oct 03, 2008, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Personally, I feel that the entire sin line needs to be reworked. I had this conversation with some friends the other day, and they agree with me for the most part. The sum of my ideas involved:

1) Change to shadow steps in general
2) Change to attack chains
3) Change in attack skill recharge.

Im planning on writing it out and posting it as soon as I have the time. Whilst the OP is right that sins need a change, his ideas are beyond retarded.

NeroX · Oct 03, 2008, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

It seems as though you missed my

btw, there is no 'using the assassin properly'. You press 1234567 and hope your target dies.

by that i meant "decently" thought of builds. at least the assassin is not an adrenaline accumulator. i cant see any other option for an assassin in a game like this especially when 2 other characters r based around adrenaline.
i guess 1234567 is for a purpose ... because if you could just spam dual attacks as your first attack and then fill the rest of your bar with other dual attacks wow ... you'd be filled with a lot of damage output.
and if you're suggesting a different skill usage system (not saying you are but the thought may arise), like a dervish or something, what would make assassin different from other classes?

but i think people are always gonna stick to their own opinion anyway.

for those that don't use assassin, despise them for whatever reason.
but i think decisions like these should be thought from both sides and NOT just from a one perspective. and weigh up the negatives against the positives. and for the amount of negatives they have, it is understandable why they should be able to output such damage.

assassin negatives:
- low def for melee
- combos interrupted easily (screw player up for X amount of time)
- recharge time can be quite long (if using shadow steps)
- if no shadow steps, too predictable and blinded before anything is done (yes, plague touch and condition removal, but how much time do you have before yo get killed. chances are u wont have the time to complete your combo)
- very limited, inadequate self heals/prot
...positives:
- high dps

compare with derv negatives:
- .... cant really think of any because they are very self sufficient in all aspects. They do massive damage in 1 hit a lot of the time so.... not to point out wounding strike.

compare with war negatives:
- slower dps to a certain extent, but they make up for it with their defense. Not to mention hammer warriors being able to keep an opponent down with KD until they fully drain the opponents health.

lets move on to ranger negatives:
- are there anything apart from their attack speed? they lack attack speed but they make up for it with the amount of conditions they can put out and interruptions they can cause. their def is also really good. majority of rangers halve ele dmg output coz of how much elemental defense they got.

hmmm ill do paragon positives:
- quick attack speed
- high def
- ranged

ill stop there ... there are more points but i hope people get the idea now.

Destro Maniak · Oct 03, 2008, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeroX

limiting yourself to just those skills just because of their unblockable status, reduces the amount of variation development in building new bars.
not to mention the unblockable attack skills sins have got arent as effective damage-wise as other skills (even though you're at least guaranteed a hit, unless blind). these shadow stepping skills ALLOW variation. imagine every sin was using the combo you just mentioned now, how predictable will that be?! then we'll all go on a blinding frenzy.
and btw, i dont always use shadow steps in my builds, but when i do, id rather no aftercast delay. Maybe shadow steps have long recharge for a reason?? because people complain about positioning as ive found out.

also, many people have commented on having some sort of condition to be met to shadow step (yes, i dont mind that).

and Stormlord Alex, thats exactly my point, they're bad enough already in pvp "WHY NERF them even more, especially in an area that can make them exceptional combatants when used properly?" (melee lacking def, plus adequate self prot ... no wonder why the rules of positioning should be bent a little.) Keep in mind whats been said in previous posts about making shadow step exclusive to assassins, and conditions to be met to shadow step.

I havent killed ANYONE with that bar but Im sure that ripping of blocking enchants+antkind of enchant made the enemy monks use so much energy to replace and thus made 3 other allied melees to kill with ease

Shattering assault is really good :P

Destro Maniak · Oct 03, 2008, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeroX

by that i meant "decently" thought of builds. at least the assassin is not an adrenaline accumulator. i cant see any other option for an assassin in a game like this especially when 2 other characters r based around adrenaline.
i guess 1234567 is for a purpose ... because if you could just spam dual attacks as your first attack and then fill the rest of your bar with other dual attacks wow ... you'd be filled with a lot of damage output.
and if you're suggesting a different skill usage system (not saying you are but the thought may arise), like a dervish or something, what would make assassin different from other classes?

but i think people are always gonna stick to their own opinion anyway.

for those that don't use assassin, despise them for whatever reason.
but i think decisions like these should be thought from both sides and NOT just from a one perspective. and weigh up the negatives against the positives. and for the amount of negatives they have, it is understandable why they should be able to output such damage.

assassin negatives:
- low def for melee
- combos interrupted easily (screw player up for X amount of time)
- recharge time can be quite long (if using shadow steps)
- if no shadow steps, too predictable and blinded before anything is done (yes, plague touch and condition removal, but how much time do you have before yo get killed. chances are u wont have the time to complete your combo)
- very limited, inadequate self heals/prot
...positives:
- high dps

compare with derv negatives:
- .... cant really think of any because they are very self sufficient in all aspects. They do massive damage in 1 hit a lot of the time so.... not to point out wounding strike.

compare with war negatives:
- slower dps to a certain extent, but they make up for it with their defense. Not to mention hammer warriors being able to keep an opponent down with KD until they fully drain the opponents health.

lets move on to ranger negatives:
- are there anything apart from their attack speed? they lack attack speed but they make up for it with the amount of conditions they can put out and interruptions they can cause. their def is also really good. majority of rangers halve ele dmg output coz of how much elemental defense they got.

hmmm ill do paragon positives:
- quick attack speed
- high def
- ranged

ill stop there ... there are more points but i hope people get the idea now.

well, as an pve(mostly I shall call) sin: the high dps is really what makes me choose an assassin
Anything else is not a concern for me, I dont die anyway

And on pvp, I dont die too
The only problem is:
If 1 skill blocked you need 30 second more to get back in if using shadow step
Or 20 more second if temple strike(just try it, temple strike on pvp *and if agains overpowered hm boss in pve* are just pwnage)

Thats why I use unlockable attack chain of total of 3 attack skill in bar to wipe every kind of enchant on the other team in few seconds only

Konig Des Todes · Oct 03, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

Personally, I feel that the entire sin line needs to be reworked. I had this conversation with some friends the other day, and they agree with me for the most part. The sum of my ideas involved:

1) Change to shadow steps in general
2) Change to attack chains
3) Change in attack skill recharge.

Im planning on writing it out and posting it as soon as I have the time. Whilst the OP is right that sins need a change, his ideas are beyond retarded.

Assassins are my favorite profession and I agree that they are OP and need a rework in the whole profession.

I'll be glad to help you with thinking out good balances when you get the time. ^^

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeroX

by that i meant "decently" thought of builds. at least the assassin is not an adrenaline accumulator. i cant see any other option for an assassin in a game like this especially when 2 other characters r based around adrenaline.
i guess 1234567 is for a purpose ... because if you could just spam dual attacks as your first attack and then fill the rest of your bar with other dual attacks wow ... you'd be filled with a lot of damage output.
and if you're suggesting a different skill usage system (not saying you are but the thought may arise), like a dervish or something, what would make assassin different from other classes?

The purpose of chain attacks is to give opponents the chance to ruin the chain. It's ANet's form of balancing the high damage from Dual Attacks. the whole 1234567 is a stereotype based on using KD and falling skills to make a 7 skill long attack chain, which imo is just plain stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeroX

assassin negatives:
- low def for melee
- combos interrupted easily (screw player up for X amount of time)
- recharge time can be quite long (if using shadow steps)
- if no shadow steps, too predictable and blinded before anything is done (yes, plague touch and condition removal, but how much time do you have before yo get killed. chances are u wont have the time to complete your combo)
- very limited, inadequate self heals/prot
...positives:
- high dps

compare with derv negatives:
- .... cant really think of any because they are very self sufficient in all aspects. They do massive damage in 1 hit a lot of the time so.... not to point out wounding strike.

compare with war negatives:
- slower dps to a certain extent, but they make up for it with their defense. Not to mention hammer warriors being able to keep an opponent down with KD until they fully drain the opponents health.

lets move on to ranger negatives:
- are there anything apart from their attack speed? they lack attack speed but they make up for it with the amount of conditions they can put out and interruptions they can cause. their def is also really good. majority of rangers halve ele dmg output coz of how much elemental defense they got.

hmmm ill do paragon positives:
- quick attack speed
- high def
- ranged

First, you cannot compare sin to rangers as paragon. Especially paragons. Paragons are support classes, not an attack class (despite using a spear and having attack skills), Rangers are, or course, ranged attackers (for the most part).

But for the assassins.... inadiquate self-heals? WTF?!?!? Way of Perfection=more then enough heals most of the time. Only spiking gets past that if you have at least 13 crit strikes (and most people put in some critical strike % increasing skill like Critical Eye or Way of the Assassin).

Skill recharges are not THAT big of an issue, yes some of the more powerful skills (in damage) have longer recharges, but there are still those with fast recharges.

Dervishes don't have much in bad points, they are basically the perfect melee class. PBAoE, highest health, decent armor (70 is not bad imo, just not as good as 80), and good self-heals. But Assassins attack faster and, if the chain is completed, do much higher damage to a single opponent.

Warriors was made before Assassins so they are naturally different. They have high armor because they were meant to be in the front line, prepared to take damage, assassins are meant to get in, kill fast, get out. And they do that fairly well. If your a sin and you go after a monk, use Beguiling Haze.

People complain about Dark Prison no longer being good, Just use Beguiling Haze as your elite, it'll kill any caster, and it has no aftercast.

Assassins need a rework because they were OP and now are underpowered (but still good with certain builds in PvP, and grand in PvE, that is without Perma-SF).

Clarissa F · Oct 03, 2008, 05:13 PM // 17:13

An assassin should be meant to get in and create a big spike, like a one-shot, one kill sniper. As such, it should also be more vulnerable to get out. I'd give them armor like a caster. They aren't supposed to be front-line fighters, and once they attack, their surprise is gone, and they should have to either get out of dodge and wait, or be an easy kill.

In other games, sins/rogues are fine. The way pvp is set up in GW, where balancing and position are most important, a sin has no part. They either need a total redesign, or need to be eliminated.

HawkofStorms · Oct 03, 2008, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destro Maniak

I havent killed ANYONE with that bar but Im sure that ripping of blocking enchants+antkind of enchant made the enemy monks use so much energy to replace and thus made 3 other allied melees to kill with ease

Shattering assault is really good :P

So you admit that the class that was originally designed as a ganking class can't kill anything.

And then you say your job as a sin is to remove enchantments, which basically means a necro (or a necro secondary with gaze of contempt) can do your "job" better without easy counters and without the positioning problems.

Ummm... what?

Keekles · Oct 03, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Those of you who can't seem to kill people with your assassin need to figure out what you're doing wrong. If it's the fact that they're anticipating the spike coming from your shadowstep, teleport to someone next to another person, and spike the other one. Charge at one and teleport to another. Pay attention to positioning.

I have had no real issues killing people with my sin builds in ab/ra (That's the only place I'll run a sin), it basically lies in how you approach them. Death's Charging in and expecting a kill no longer works (thank God). There is more to the game than using a skill-chain and expecting your target to die. 1-2-3-4-5-6 builds are degenerate and not good for the game. They require little to no skill to play. On the contrary, a build such as the Shock-Axe on a warrior does require skill to use. In fact, any class that doesn't use shadowsteps needs to worry about positioning. It adds another dimension to the game that makes the game more strategic.

I'm going to quote myself here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keekles

The entire concept of ignoring the positioning aspect of game play was flawed to begin with. The way Guild Wars PvP is structured, positioning plays a rather large role, and allowing one class (or anyone who takes it as a secondary) to completely ignore an aspect of it is bad.

If you can't see why positioning is important, either learn why it is, or go play something else. I know that's rather rude of me to say so, but in a way, not wanting to have to pay attention to positioning in Guild Wars PvP is similar to driving a car and not wanting to have to pay attention to obstacles in the road.

BlackSephir · Oct 03, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I've got a better update. Delete the Assassin profession from PvP.

no u
Taking the easy way instead of the only right way... B) That's not how I roll!

NeroX · Oct 04, 2008, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keekles

Those of you who can't seem to kill people with your assassin need to figure out what you're doing wrong. If it's the fact that they're anticipating the spike coming from your shadowstep, teleport to someone next to another person, and spike the other one. Charge at one and teleport to another. Pay attention to positioning.

That is pretty much what i was doing before i ever started this thread. this thread wasn't made just for my satisfaction, i thought maybe it would give others in favor of the revert, the chance to voice up. But has turned out to backfire on me and not many people are in support of it.
i havent been a BIG user of teleports anyway but the delay has influenced my decisions even more when making a build these days. ive worked out other, more effective spammable builds that still have massive damage output.

(btw. i only compared sins to rangers and paragons as a class as a whole. just pointing out why they can turn out to be way more effective than sins. thanks for pointing out they were ranged because that's such a hard thing to notice.)

people may think im noob now after this thread lol. but i dont care.

Vallisahllirium · Oct 04, 2008, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keekles

There is more to the game than using a skill-chain and expecting your target to die.

Yup...and shadowstep gives you main boost in attack and defense...I use AoD for a very long time, its best defense and offense you can get, and that suprise effect is for what sins are made...how much time I have killed ranger who activated defensive stance after my 4th attack cause he just didnt realised that he is being spiked quickly:P you "just" need to know when to attack and catch your foes unprepared with sin.
Aftercast of .75 isnt so large...but in most cases enough that u lose your suprise moment.

Keekles · Oct 04, 2008, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Vallishllirium: That must be some damn horrible ranger. .75 is nothing. A monk cannot cast guardian in that time, and the only thing they can do is kite. To be honest, there are plenty of people who let me as a shock-axe war run up to them, hit them and just frenzy hit them to death. Rangers not hitting a def stance until a sin is 4 hits in is just a terrible ranger, or his def stance was recharging (which is what d-shot is for). If you ran into that ranger in AB (it seems almost all terrible players I encounter are encountered there), then I'm not surprised he died to you. Sins have their counters, and they had their counters before the nerf to shadowsteps, but that doesn't change that the entire idea of it was flawed.

The main reason I dislike shadowsteps (I exploited them before the change too), is that they remove the aspect of positioning from the game even if it's just for a moment. No matter how observant you are of the field, it is much harder to keep track of everything entering casting range to you, than to things that are running toward you. You might argue that the surprise from a shadowstep is what sins should have had, but I stand by my argument that you should not be able to ignore a particular aspect of the game.

Vallisahllirium · Oct 04, 2008, 08:20 AM // 08:20

actually its rangers..forgot S

..oh well...started to play ranger anyway so dont care anymore...at least they could put shadowsteping then only for sins...or not puting it at all..we shall see what will be in gw 2